Culture is conversations: Why HR should put managers at the centre of leadership

Do CEOs really set culture?

“Leadership teams come and go. CEOs come and go. And depending on the size of the organisation the show carries on,” says Farley Thomas, a former global managing director at HSBC and now founder of leadership edtech firm Manageable.

It is a provocative challenge to one of business’s most enduring assumptions: that culture, performance and engagement start at the top. In reality, Thomas argues, most employees don’t notice when there’s a new CEO, new strategy and so on. Instead they are “buffeted by other winds, such as their teammates, the work in hand, whether they are able to do it – and crucially the person who is supervising the team, leading the team and giving the team day-to-day direction and influence.”

The problem is that we tend to fetishise CEOs but we may be confusing status with influence. Gallup data reinforces this, showing that direct managers account for the vast majority of engagement variance.

Why managers hold the levers of performance

“CEOs really want performance. And if you really want performance, you’d very much focus on the levers of performance… you’ll very quickly arrive at the frontline managers,” Thomas tells The People Space’s editorial director Siân Harrington on an episode of the Work’s Not Working… Let’s Fix It podcast. 

The manager’s role is pivotal not because of their authority but because of their proximity. Managers shape the quality of work, the distribution of tasks, the recognition of effort and the trust that keeps people motivated.

Research consistently shows this influence. Gallup finds that managers shape the conditions that drive employee engagement, or disengagement, through the relationships they build. The notes that the manager is either an “engagement-creating coach” or an “engagement-destroying boss” and, in both cases, the relationship directly influences employee behaviour. Empowering relationships foster engagement by creating a clear dynamic: “You help me do this, so I can achieve that.” The result is stronger behaviours and higher performance.

What is the accidental manager problem?

Despite this influence, most managers are left to figure it out alone. As Thomas says: “Some 80% of first-time managers in the UK have had no training whatsoever,” says Thomas. “And I don't think you can only point the finger at organisations. I think a big chunk of these managers have probably not thought that they need to hone their craft to develop their skills. They're engaging in a new profession – of management, of leading people.”

The Chartered Management Institute calls these individuals “accidental managers” – people promoted for technical success rather than leadership ability. They are often elevated because organisations design career progression around managerial promotion rather than specialist expertise.

This problem compounds itself. Without support first-time managers struggle, disengage their teams and sometimes drive attrition. Yet HR systems continue to reward the status of the managerial title without investing in the skills it requires.

Culture is conversations

Culture has long been debated as values, rituals or strategy execution. Thomas reduces it to its most practical unit: conversation. “Performance equals conversations. Conversations equal culture.”

He notes that every single conversation employees have is on the clock. “We’re being paid to have them. And managers’ conversations are particularly important because they are hugely influential in employees’ wellbeing, in employees’ engagement, [and] how team members feel.”

Psychological safety research by Harvard’s Amy Edmondson supports this. Teams thrive not because of CEO speeches but because they can speak up, share ideas and challenge assumptions without fear. 

Thomas argues: “If we wanted to start somewhere, manager development in its holistic sense would be wonderful. But what about just getting a sense of the kind of conversations managers are having and giving them some pointers, some frames, some guardrails.”

What is the CLICK model?

Thomas’s practical answer is the CLICK model, a simple framework to guide intentional conversations:

• Connection – build trust and rapport
• Landscape – explore the context through curiosity
• Insight – develop shared understanding
• Challenge – bring constructive stretch and radical candour
• Key points – agree clear takeaways and next steps

He admits it sounds obvious: “The more obvious it seems, the better, because then we’ve got a chance that really busy managers can a) get to grips with it and b) put it into practice.”

This simplicity is its strength. Unlike more elaborate leadership models approaches like CLICK are designed for everyday use. They give managers a shared language and a practical tool to make conversations intentional rather than accidental.

Why CEO conversations don’t trickle down

It is not that CEOs can’t have powerful conversations – many do – but that their impact is limited to those immediately around them.

“It’s almost not so important whether CEOs are brilliant at conversations or not. The point that I would love to become mainstream is that that’s not where the action is,” he tells me on the podcast. “Them having great conversations will impact the ecosystem immediately around them but does it trickle down? I’ve seen very little evidence of that.

And so I would argue that, since we’re not going to stop any of the activity at the top end of organisations, we could start some really powerful, actually not very expensive and eminently scalable activity at the frontline manager level. And I think that’s going to have a huge effect almost immediately on everyone in the teams of those first-time managers. If we can pull both off in parallel, we might over the next few years actually converge on some sort of… golden age of managers enacting the craft of management.”

What should HR leaders do now?

If performance lives in conversations HR must reorient leadership development accordingly. Thomas offers three starting actions:
 

1. Bring managers together in peer groups – create small cohorts to practise conversation skills.
2. Run short, practical workshops – one-hour sessions introducing frameworks like CLICK.
3. Shift the mindset – Get everybody to realise the obvious, which is performance equals conversations. And that will provoke some reflection like, ooh, I’m talking on the clock. Therefore my words count.

Thomas is optimistic about what could happen if organisations invest in managers with rigour. “If we can pull both off in parallel, we might over the next few years actually converge on… a golden age of managers enacting the craft of management.”

CEOs will remain symbolic leaders and strategic figureheads. But if HR wants to move the needle on engagement, productivity and culture the frontline manager is the true lever. As Thomas concludes: “The results are amazing and teams report far more motivation, far higher levels of engagement. And it is exactly what all of the CEOs I’ve coached over the years are desperate for.”

Listen to the full episode: This article is based on an episode of Work’s Not Working… Let’s Fix It. Listen to What If CEOs Don’t Matter? with Farley Thomas on The People Space and all the usual podcast platforms.